anyone heard of the Kegel Queen?

Body: 

Hi, there. I'm new to the forums, so I'm sorry if this has been discussed before. I searched but didn't find anything.
I'm very new to the whole prolapse world. I've had the tendency toward prolapse for a couple years, but birthing my 7th baby brought on a rectocele (did I spell that wrong?), and moved me into a new phase of this stuff. I'm finally trying to learn about this.
I want to avoid any invasive procedures such as surgery, but I'm still looking at all the options at this point.
I found a recommendation to www(dot)kegelqueen(dot)com. Of course, it all sounds wonderful, but I'm leery for a few reasons: it sounds like a too-good-to-be-true thing; the whole website reminds me of sneaky marketing techniques, and you have to listen to an hour-long webinar (aka advertisement) just to get to the pricing and ordering information.
I'm wondering if anyone here has actually gone with her stuff or had any experience or heard anything about her?
Thanks for your help. I'll be lurking and learning for a while. :)

Welcome larksong34

Just scroll up to the top of this page and click into the blog tab. You will find an article called"A new model of core stability" which is a valuable article. Scroll down past it and you will find another one which is called "Just do yer Kegels". This article contains the basic information for the realization that Kegels is not what a woman with prolapse is needing. Good luck.

Hi and welcome Larksong34 sorry I haven't looked at your link as I'm about to go to bed but wanted to let you know my experience with Kegels which is a bit varied.
I was doing heaps of Kegels and had been to a pelvic nurse and at my last visit she tested my strength which was about 8.5 out if 10 which she thought was good for my age at that time approx 48. Anyway as menopause took over more the next few years I found they made no improvement to my prolapse . I then bought a kegelmaster and did 15 minutes each weekday that was no fun and after 3 months I felt worse , what a waste of time and personally I feel we women are fed thc biggest myth bring told to them and I have been told by so many to do them. I've finally realized ive been duped . Although doing just a few may help another side other than prolapse . Sorry I'm on my iPhone big hard scrolling along to read what I'm
Typing without losing what I've said hope this helps .
I find the whole woman posture the first thing to help and fire breathing I'm working on the nauli at present . There is heaps to read here it takes time and some hard work and commitment but I've found the benefits are worth it , and onf becomes more finely tuned to ones body and a new world opens up :-) by the way my prolapse first began at age 20 but I didn't know thats what it was . And that's another story ! I wish you all the best and I'm sure others will offer encouragement .

Hi Larksong - since you have found your way to Whole Woman, I'm assuming that maybe by now you have looked around a little at the information here. I did not get much off the Kegel Queen site because I refused to enter my personal info. But I saw enough to realize that she espouses the traditional pelvic floor model of the soft tissue hammock. That was enough for me, I clicked off! Good grief, just what the world doesn't need, another kegel queen. I did them for decades, so I, like all the others who were blessed to find their way here, fully understand what a dirty rotten lie it all was. - Surviving

Hi all,

Larksong, I'm sorry to hear about your rectocele.

And I'm really glad there are places you can go, like this forum, to learn about alternatives to surgery. I have total respect for the hard work Christine has put in over the years to help women keep their bodies intact and not fall victim to a medical system that is misguided at best and predatory at worst. While we may disagree about kegels, we are absolutely on the same page that prolapse surgery is a very dangerous, ineffective option that women are wise to avoid.

Surviving: "Dirty rotten lie?" Wow. Strong words! I understand the theoretical reasons kegels "shouldn't" work. It's a good thing nobody told me about all that before I did my own research about kegels, though, because doing kegels correctly has totally eliminated my prolapse symptoms, incontinence, and sex problems. Nearly 1,000 Kegel Queen members and 16 countries later, I show up to work every day fired up by the thank-you letters I constantly get from women who have also had great results from doing kegels correctly. (Please note the key word there: correctly.) Each and every thank-you letter and success story I receive gets filed and catalogued by me and my wonderful assistant -- I can't handle them by myself anymore. Email us if you'd like to read some of them, and we can send you a PDF.

Will kegels work for everyone? Of course not. There's no treatment for anything that works for 100 percent of people 100 percent of the time. But kegels definitely don't work when women are not doing them right, which is the case for the overwhelming majority of women (well over 99 percent of those I've communicated with). Even the best and most holistically oriented women's health professionals, like midwives and childbirth educators, don't know how to do kegels right.

Larksong, you said my web site reminds you of "sneaky marketing." You're welcome to draw whatever conclusions you want, of course. :-) I take care of my integrity and that of my business by delivering on what I promise. I make some big promises in my marketing materials, and that's because women have had big results from my program. I am not trying to use this comment to promote my stuff, only to share the experience of myself and hundreds of other women, which is that my program works.

What you originally asked for was more info about me. If you're interested in more info about me & my program, please take a look at my youtube videos, or see blog posts about me on mamasweat or Katy Bowman's blog. Of course, there's also my webinar, which answers all the most common questions women have.

Blessings,

Alyce

I think you have every right to come on here and answer criticisms of Kegels especially as your name and site have been mentioned. And I thank you that you have taken the time to do so. However, your basic premise that women are just doing Kegels wrong is hardly inducement for me to join your site. Who do you recommend your correct kegels specifically to? And why are yours more correct than those demonstrated and monitored by physios? Have you considered Christine's New Kegels?

best wishes, Fab

"If you're interested in more info about me & my program, please take a look at my youtube videos, or see blog posts about me on mamasweat or Katy Bowman's blog. Of course, there's also my webinar, which answers all the most common questions women have."

I think what Larksong was looking for was opinions from people who have been learning the wholewoman way. This is after all the wholewoman forum :)

But I saw enough to realize that she espouses the traditional pelvic floor model of the soft tissue hammock. That was enough for me, I clicked off! Good grief, just what the world doesn't need, another kegel queen. I did them for decades, so I, like all the others who were blessed to find their way here, fully understand what a dirty rotten lie it all was. - Surviving

"Surviving: "Dirty rotten lie?" Wow. Strong words!" Alyce

Yes, here the dirty rotten lie is that of the soft tissue hammock. Anatomically this is simply incorrect. And incidentally, exposing that lie has been a mission of wholewoman since the inception.

Meh, looks to me like you are here, talking about your materials, that you sell, and saying it isn't marketing. I'm gonna go ahead and call b*llsh*t.

Stick around if you like, you might learn something. But no more soft marketing ;)

Don't feed the TROLL! It takes a fine pair of shiny brass testicles to come onto this site and not only claim that kegels WORK, but also to mention several links where one can find out MORE about this wonderful-- AHEM!-- "program"! Makes me wonder if "Alyce" might actually be a salesMAN... like the truly nasty fellow who pushes that wonder of modern snakeoil salesmanship, the Kegelmaster. The Kegelmaster guy pretends to be a traditional "hot babe", of course... but it's easy to hire models, and to hide behind a fake identity.

I'm a bit fierce on this particular subject of marketing LIES to vulnerable women, because I also (like Kiwi, I think it was?) once invested about $100 in a Kegelmaster... and tried using it, on and off, for years, for mild incontinence... and (of course) it only made things worse. It seemed fishy from the first, but I was so eager for it to work that I suspended my disbelief. BIG MISTAKE!

If it walks like a duck, and quacks... i.e., if it LOOKS and SOUNDS "fishy", it probably IS.

Hi Alyce – I have checked out your website and videos. I haven’t seen anything that makes me think that the kegels I’ve done over the years have been done incorrectly (i.e., I never did any of the things you said not to do). But your site doesn’t go beyond that. I do give you points for rotating the pelvis in one of your videos; however, you had it in the correct position for all of about 2 seconds. The correct orientation of the pelvis is key to understanding why kegels don't address the problem, and can actually make it worse by pulling the organs in the wrong direction.

I have been doing Whole Woman work for 2-1/2 years and I am one of the moderators of this forum. I discovered my prolapse post-menopause but I spent many, many years before that doing kegels religiously. I don’t know if they helped, hurt, or had no effect, but once I learned the anatomy of all this, I knew I’d never kegel again. They didn’t prevent my prolapse so I have no reason to think they will help now. Christine’s explanations of why they are useless at best and harmful at worst, certainly resonated with me.

The biggest problem with a kegel-based approach to prolapse is that it ignores the root of the problem, which is postural. If you and your students have improved your symptoms without addressing the fundamental spine and hip issues, then you are putting a band-aid on the problem. Prolapse management is only one of many benefits of making this posture correction at any stage of life. This is about preserving the health of the spine and hips. Maybe you have to be a little older, like me, to understand and appreciate just how big this really is. Focusing on kegels puts you pretty squarely in the mainstream of everything that’s wrong with women’s health practices today. - Surviving

Hi Kegel Queen

We have been searching for years for good quality academic research published in peer-reviewed scientific journals, that shows that Kegels improve anything but the most minor degree of prolapse. We have not found any. If you have, and can provide links to it, we would very much like to have a look at it.

Incontinence. Yes, I believe that Kegels have been somewhat useful for waking up a postpartum pelvic floor which had no sensation, and could not move at all. But it needed electical stimulation to get it started. After I learned to move and use these muscles again I kept doing Kegels on and off for a few years, but didn't really get any more improvement with my incontinence. About fifteen years after my last baby was born I found Whole Woman. I no longer have stress incontinence, and am able to deal with urge incontinence of both bowel and bladder by using posture and my pelvic floor, along with some other Whole Woman techniques to deal with it. Kegels are no longer relevant for me.

Other symptoms? Yeah, maybe. Maybe not. You don't give many details of your personal prolapse experience, so we can only guess. Perhaps your topic was simply promotion?

Louise

Hi there,

I get the impression that some women who posted would rather I didn’t respond at all, but for women who are genuinely curious, I’m going to do my best to answer your questions. I don’t know how to address those questions without talking about what I do; I apologize if that sounds like promotion to you.

From my perspective, we’re all on the same team. As a general rule in life, and certainly in this situation, I’m a lot more interested in what we have in common than in focusing on our differences. I don’t need to be the only person with the one “right” answer -- as far as I’m concerned, anyone who is out there helping women is helping, and I’m glad for that. That’s why in my program, I actually refer my students to information from people who disagree with me about kegels, like Katy Bowman and Christine. We’re all working to help women heal themselves, and that’s the part that’s important to me.

Louise asked about the research: You know the research as well as I do. As you know, there’s a lot of research supporting the fact that kegels help with incontinence. With prolapse, as you’re well aware, there’s very little research about any non-surgical approaches. That’s why when I first started teaching, I didn’t talk about prolapse a whole lot. I would just say, “There’s not much research about this, but research indicates there’s a possibility it could help, and this is what happened with my own symptoms (which is that they disappeared totally).” Then what happened was that my members kept telling me their prolapse was better. They were telling me that their symptoms were better, or that their symptoms were gone, or that their prolapse had reversed to a lesser degree or that it had reversed to zero. Another result my members have had with prolapse is that their pessary starts working better; they can hold it in instead of the pessary falling out all the time. So now I talk about those results. I’m not going to pretend it isn’t happening just because there’s not a randomized controlled trial about it; I’m going to share information that can help more women to feel better.

Surviving: Thanks for acknowledging that it might actually be possible that my students and I have improved our symptoms. And I agree with you totally that posture and alignment are extremely important. That’s why I talk to the women in my program about it and provide them with links to people like Christine who specialize in that approach. You said kegels are a band-aid. If by “band-aid” you mean something easy to use that helps you feel better, yes, that’s what kegels can do. Some of the women I teach may go no further than kegels. Others will take my advice, see the big picture, and take the next step to work on their posture and alignment, as I do.

Fab asked why my kegels are better than physiotherapists’/physical therapists’. There are some great PT’s out there. I recommend that women see a good women’s health PT if they need hands-on help. There’s material in my program specifically to help women figure out if they need help from a PT.

And, there are a couple of very common problems with PTs. One: Not all of them are good. Based on what my members describe to me, a frightening number of PTs are giving women instructions that are not remotely close to what the research says is most effective. Some of them simply aren’t very good teachers and don’t have the skills to help women truly understand what to do. Others are highly skilled, but they’re giving women a kegel program that’s so complex and time-consuming that women simply don’t ever do it at home -- then of course because they’re not doing it they don’t get results.

mulchfairy: You and I agree about one thing, which is that kegel devices are a very bad idea. I will never recommend a kegel device of any kind.

About “New Kegels”: They’re not kegels, which of course is Christine’s point. I say, if it works, do it! Christine’s program is obviously helping a lot of women, and that’s great! As I tried to say earlier, I don’t think there’s a single one-size-fits-all solution that is going to work for everyone, or feel right for everyone, which is why it’s cool that there’s more than one option out there for women who want to safely heal their bodies. Anyone who is helping women to do that has my support.

Some of you questioned whether I’m really a woman, or I’m really the Kegel Queen, or I really had prolapse… I’m not going to spend a lot of time on that stuff. See what I have to say and decide for yourself.

Surviving said, “Focusing on kegels puts you pretty squarely in the mainstream of everything that’s wrong with women’s health practices today.” As you might guess, my perspective is different. In my opinion, what’s wrong with women’s health practices is that they’re based on a mechanistic, industrial-model, patriarchal and authoritarian medical system -- a system that treats women like cogs in a machine and focuses on dangerous, expensive approaches like drugs and surgery while ignoring safe, simple, lifestyle-based healing practices that really work.

I believe that the most powerful healing practices are those that not only make our bodies feel good and work well, but also nourish our spirit, remind us how powerful we are, and increase our sense of connection with nature and with other people. I believe that if we had a health care system based on those values, there would be a lot more healthy and happy people out there. It’s precisely because my work is aligned with those values that I am passionate about what I do.

I’m open to intelligent, respectful dialogue about the places we disagree, but the name-calling and antagonistic tone I’ve experienced on this forum doesn’t work for me. I do appreciate having had this opportunity to respond, and I sincerely wish you all a very happy new year and a lifetime of radiant good health.

Be well,

Alyce Adams, RN
The Kegel Queen

Hi, Alyce. Thanks for taking the time with this response. Let me just issue a reminder that this is, in fact, the Whole Woman forum. It is not the same as “open” forums, where all comments from anywhere are equally weighted. On these pages, those who encourage women to do things we believe are harmful will be challenged. If you had a forum, you would likely have a similar response to any anti-kegelers who might happen post their opinions. And no one would blame you.

I’m still waiting to find out what’s so different about your special kegels. I didn't find even a clue in your post. Won’t you even try to convince me? - Surviving

Personally, as a newby, I came on this site specifically for the information it had to offer. It made sense to me. If I wanted other information I would have googled it; actually I did look at a lot of different information before I settled in here. I really don't want to be confused by conflicting information that contradicts what this site has to offer, because I really feel I am going down the right path for me: the whole woman way.

Hi Alyce,

I really hope you can understand what we are trying to convey to you.

This is not about “needing to be the only person with the one right answer”. It is about getting to truth. It is about a revolutionary, accurate anatomical understanding that includes the fact that lying on your back contracting your vaginal sphincter pulls your bladder toward your front vaginal wall, and your rectum toward your back vaginal wall. In other words, in the direction of prolapse. Kegeling on your back also pulls your clitoris closer to your vagina - the reason why contracting toward a thrusting penis leads to orgasm. If you are going to do sets of kegels on your back, at least have something in your vagina to support your vaginal walls!

We are teaching that doing sets of strong kegels on your back, which you suggest women do, can actually make prolapse worse. Do you see that we cannot both be right? I am certainly not going to argue with your postpartum success, nor with any of your other claims. You are creating a lot of hype around a very old, ill-conceived concept that has had little if any positive impact on the epidemic of prolapse. If it had, there would be dozens of valid, reproducible studies, which to this day do not exist. Women have been kegeling themselves silly for decades to no avail, making the surgical option much more seductive. Now we understand why. I have blogged extensively about this and will not take the time to write it out again here. There is no debate.

I find your materials very disturbing and that they hardly reflect the great concern for women’s welfare you profess to have. Your entire concept of doing a “correct” kegel is based on whether the muscles are being contracted, or “pushed out”.

“Don’t do that! Doing push-outs habitually can damage your pelvic floor and increase your risk of prolapse. Even one really strong push can lead to prolapse for some women. Pushing hard can even cause you to faint”. Are women really that stupid?

Your “correct” kegel is nothing new:

“Begin a contraction and build it to maximum or near-maximum intensity as you exhale, slowly and deeply. Hold the contraction. One-second inhalations and exhalations while you hold the contraction, counting seconds as you do so. Go as long as you can up to ten seconds.”

Many women have reported this exercise to worsen their prolapse symptoms.

You, Katy and others (including an army of PTs) are invested in the status quo, and as such benefit from joining forces together. I wish I could help reinforce your position too, but it is not going to happen. You remind me of a logger of old-growth forests who, when people finally wake up to the environmental destruction caused by her job, must find another career path.

The pelvic organ support system is a postural system, and until women are pulling their organs forward with Whole Woman posture, they will indeed be un-aligned and un-well.

Christine

I think that might be about it. We know now who The Kegel Queen is, and we now know what she espouses. We still don't have any of our Members who have used her, and who can comment on her paid services.

We don't know how her style of Kegels is different from any other. We also do not know whether her recovery from prolapse symptoms was normal postpartum recovery, or whether her pelvic floor was in as bad a condition as mine was after my second baby, prior to doing her own program or whether it was a combination of several factors.

We do share a lot of common ideas with Alyce, and a common ethos of helping women with whatever tools work, as long as they do work. Is there some unknown ingredient that we would get if we signed up for her program? I doubt it, but I could be wrong. I can see that there are many people out there teaching Kegels who are not doing it well, and there are many exercise regimes that are not helpful. There are many women who do have sagging pelvic floor muscles, who will no doubt experience better sex and better urinary continence as a result of learning Kegels properly.

I hope she has many satisfied customers. I also hope that readers realise how much more 'POP bang they will get for their buck' by utilising a certified Whole Woman Practitioner's services (including Christine Kent) !! ;-)

Louise

just a couple of quick points.

1) i have met and spoken with alyce and her husband and partner in their business, mulchfairy and they are real and pleasant people. so while the anonymity of the web can give rise to fraudulent presentation, alyce is who she says she is.

2) that having been said, from my point of view, the whole woman forum is not a debating society. the debate is over. christine has shown definitively and conclusively that the traditional anatomical model and the associated palliative techniques (e.g. kegels) are incorrect. anyone who disagrees is free to look elsewhere for information. as i have written elsewhere, christine has demonstrated her leadership by putting a stake in the ground and standing by it. she has done her homework, frankly better than anyone in the medical system. and she is prepared to back it up, chapter and verse with the research, the studies, the papers and the anecdotal evidence of thousands of women around the world.

the whole woman forum is an educational institution. we are not here to debate kegels, whether or not surgery is appropriate for prolapse or incontinence. these issues have been put to bed. when women come here, our job is support them in the "experiment" of the whole woman way. help them feel that they are not alone. help them get full value from the materials into which christine has put her heart and soul. help them prove the validity of her work to themselves.

i do not believe any of us on this forum do justice to the frightened, hungry, isolated or merely curious women who come to this forum looking for a legitimate alternative to surgery or other misguided information they may have received from the medical system or those who support the traditional model of the pelvic organ support system by engaging in debate about issues that have been resolved.

people, be they purveyors of products and services or just believers in a different model, should not be here selling their wares. if you have a need, an open mind, an open heart and an willingness to step out of your comfort zone and explore a different way of thinking about your body and your relationship to the medical institution, then you've come to the right place. we'll support you to the hilt. but if you want to question our underlying principles, then read christine's book. there are almost 400 citations to scientific papers books and articles. if that doesn't satisfy you, then you've come to the wrong place.

Thanks again Lanny, for shining the light on what we all are doing here.

I do not blame Alyce for coming onto this forum and defending her position in a discussion thread not started by her. I can see she is the real deal, a nice person with women’s best interests at heart. I’m sure she realizes that she will never have the last word on this forum. I’m thinking that when she hits menopause, her failure to address the real issues will catch up to her. Alyce, good luck to you, you’ll need it if your entire prolapse strategy is to keep squinching up those muscles. You missed a golden opportunity to start younger and get better improvement than those of us who didn’t find out until our 60’s.

No more about Alyce. At least not from me.

I, too, place my stake in the ground. I appreciate that Lanny has opened the door that enables me to state my position with honesty. I’m not a long-timer compared to some, but I’ve tried to make up for lost time in my efforts to spread the good news.

On the day of my “discovery”, I didn’t whine, I didn’t panic (well, actually yes, I did). I just hit the internet and found WW and said yes, this is what I will do. I didn’t post a million questions on the forum and wait in desperation for people to come back with answers to convince me over and over that this was worth trying. It was obviously worth trying. It was only later, after working (alone) with Christine’s book, that I returned here to help spread the word. Not long after that, I was asked to help moderate this forum. I take great pride in this, and take the job quite seriously.

And what I have found is that we of this forum are having to work WAY too hard to convince people of what is already known. Even worse, we become engaged in debate and defense of WW principles, an activity which has no place here and is quite frankly sapping away too much of our energy. Like all of you, I have a rather full life (full-time job, not-quite-empty nest, elderly parent to care for, no shortage of day-to-day stresses and strains). Getting a handle on my prolapse was critical to keeping this life happy and livable. This is exactly what I want for each and every one of you, which is why I came back here to be a part of this.

But only you can do this work. There is nothing more that any of us can say, or should need to say, to convince you. It’s all out there for the taking. I personally cannot fathom anyone discovering Christine’s teachings and not embracing them for their obvious validity. Yet I know there are some who can’t or won’t. It’s up to me, from now on, to decide which fence-sitters are worth my time and energy, and which ones are simply TAKING my time and energy because I (and the rest of us) have done a good job of making it appear that we have all the time and energy in the world to spare.

Christine and Lanny have bestowed a large gift upon the women of the world, at a huge sacrifice to themselves. Take it, or leave it. - Surviving

surviving, it is the commitment, time and energy of women like you that have made the whole woman forum what it has been for almost ten years. focus is the thing that will demonstrate to the women who come here that we are serious and expect them to be also. ask questions? of course, solicit validation from others? sure. but then do the work. it's not about being mean. it's about being serious. hundreds of thousands of women are being eviscerated every year, sanctioned and encouraged by a misguided and corrupt system. there is no time to waste. "we will help you get started but you have to do the work" is the message that needs to be clear on the whole woman forum. those of you who have been successful with the whole woman work know that you get out of it precisely what you put into it.

thank you surviving, louise, alemama, granolamom, liv, aza, kiki, and the many other supportive, loving women who show up here day after day often after all the kids have been put to bed and before exhaustion overtakes them to give back to the community of women who desperately need their information, insight, wisdom, encouragement. you are shining lights in what is, sadly, sometimes a dark and hostile world. you inspire us to keep pushing and driving whole woman forward. thank you.

I recognize Lanny’s intention here is to stop any further discussion of issues which are not part of the WW paradigm. That it needs to be done on the forum is for everyone’s enlightenment, however it has left me somewhat confused. Maybe it is a comprehension difficulty on my part, but I do have a number of concerns which have been raised in Lanny’s posts.

1. The only person I have noticed banging on about kegels and confusing the troops is Louised. And I think that might have been settled with her and Christine on the saggy post as being a matter of nerves rather than muscles. Although, I do see Louise still using the expression although Christine called it on that post a myth. For my part it was never about saggy muscles, disturbed nerves after child birth yes, but not saggy muscles, but prolapse.

2. I have admired Surviving's persistent kindness and thoughtful helpfulness in her posting and have thanked her on behalf of us all on a few occasions. I believe she is well worth the encouragement you have extended her. I however, have no idea who it is that has upset her as she only says “you know who you are”. That could be all or any of us. I am not comfortable with the dissonance that creates.

3. I’m sure those amongst us who are presently actually actively contributing to WW forum enjoy being left off your list of people to thank.

My concern is always for the betterment of WW, yet I find these issues disturbing and not being really resolved.

Best wishes, Fab

If you would like me to stop posting, just say the word.

first, let me clarify that i don't follow the forum closely. christine and i talk about it occasionally when something of particular interest shows up. because i am not intimate with all the threads and conversations i am not qualified, nor was it my intent to single out anyone for criticism (criticism wasn't my point at all) nor to ignore any specific individual contributor of whom there are many, past and present who deserve recognition. if anyone either way feels criticized or neglected, my apologies.

every human artifact is designed and design requires a set of fundamental ordering principles. community like whole woman, is organic, shifting, changing and evolving. however it is created and financially supported by christine which gives her the right (and me by proxy) to revisit the underlying principles from time to time. of course, harmony in the community is desirable. my point was that it is not always possible. there have been many times of contention on the forum over the years. it seemed to me that it is useful on occasion to revisit the underlying design principles to help clarify and focus the dialogue around the core intentions of the forum. hopefully, this will benefit the mods, the supporters, and the newbies as well.

i hope this clarifies my intentions.

lanny

I can only tell you how it appears. I accept that you do not read the forum much. And it was on that assumption that I gave you the feedback I did above. By doing so even though it may prove a minority of one perception, you were being given the perception of a user.

You appear to think that I was asking for personal thanks. In fact, I have been thanked on a few occasions by Christine and other users and that has been precious to me. No, it is a far wider perception I am trying to give you than the need for personal thanks or recognition.

Every paradigm changing discovery has had it disciples and its dissidents. It is important to juggle the two in an honest and free way which I have seen Christine has always attempted to do. That tolerance is a two way street and you have no control over the thoughts or actions of other people, so for this reason Christine’s tolerance has not always been enough to preserve even friendly relationships. But really from what I have seen over the past two and a half years these have been handled well.

When people use this forum to air their views on issues outside of the WW paradigm, for advertising ,or to bag the medical authorities as a whole, I do my best to preserve WW’s good name so that it does not get bound up in people’s personal beliefs rather than its strict purpose to give pop management advice and support, within WW knowledge to women experiencing it and asking for help. And, not in any way least, to prevent the alienation of women because of someone’s particular hobby horse. It is not in an attempt to stifle discussion or have a good fight, but an attempt to support WW’s excellent reputation that you and Christine have built.

I can relate very strongly to Christine’s attempt to introduce the new. I empathize with the frustration she must feel when she is misinterpreted accidentally or more specifically willfully. As a user of the forum I too have been frustrated when she has been misrepresented. I am also frustrated when conflicting advice is given by people who do or should know better without it being corrected on that same thread. We all make mistakes and can be forgiven that I hope, but for new people coming in it is confusing. Again I am talking on my own experience.

I realize too that you are loath to talk in specifics, but without knowledge of the specific causes of dissonance, there is little that can be done to resolve them. And I do mean resolve.

Best wishes, Fab

Hi fab, wonderful fab. The first order of business is to let Lanny off the hook. He is not a forum regular, as all of us know. The women he mentioned are all (except myself) part of the network of early original members who helped WW get off the ground by taking Christine’s teachings and running with them. Most of them aren’t seen much on the forum these days, unless you are searching through some of those priceless early posts. They will always be part of the WW family.

As for myself, Lanny’s words brought all my frustrations bubbling to the surface. I guess I just had to get them out, and I saw a window of opportunity. I have a feeling that if Christine and Lanny had known, 10 or 15 years ago, that in 2012 they would be defending against kegelers on their own site, still giving blood, sweat and tears to improve women’s lives and getting so very little in return, shouting the truth into the wind……they might have packed it all in, and where would you and I be today?

I apologize for my rant. You, fab, were probably one of the only ones who was listening, and I say that because I can’t imagine how else you could possibly have thought I meant you. Your contribution to this site has so much more depth and breadth than mine could ever have.. I can only talk posture, but you can talk pretty much everything else as well. You have probably heard some of your own advice coming out of my mouth from time to time. And you keep coming here with more and more all the time. I am a lightweight in so many areas, and I bow to your presence.

Well, I guess I had one or two particular threads in mind when I made my ill-conceived comment. I’d venture to say that the person or persons I had in my mind at that moment was probably a composite of an even larger population. In the end, in my mind’s eye was a jumble of all the women who have come here wanting everything spoon-fed to them. Afraid to so much as order a book without someone being able to tell them what their results would be!!

Anyway, thanks again Lanny for giving me the chance to vent. Thank you fab for just being fab. Because you are, absolutely fab and you are one of my favorite people in the world. - Surviving

...you seem so like me. :-) I have a deep need to be direct and to have all the cards on the table. However, my life experience has shown me that I'm in the minority. It must be because of the direct way I see the world that I've been given insight into various puzzles and problems.

Louise and I have been sparing partners for all these years and I feel quite strongly that the product of that relationship has helped grow both our knowledge base and the WW community. So what if she can't dive off the high dive, I guess we will just have to push her! lol. Louise's peace-making instincts have helped counter my more prickly side so that we're able to have any community at all. Love you Louise!! ♥ ♥ ♥

The sense I got from Surviving's comments was that she was referring to sorta-newbies who were having a hard time accepting our concepts and practices. And Lanny's litany of names were all present and past moderators. Fab, I even suggested to the mods last week that we get in touch with you and MsNightingale to bring you into our moderator community.

Like every other community, it’s really hard (impossible) to love each other all the time. So, if we have to have a big family blow-out once in a while to clear the air, so be it! I feel so much love from all of you and I can tell you without a doubt that every time someone expresses that on the forums my heart function improves.

Let us cherish each other.

HUUGGGGGGGGGGGSSSSSSSSS

Christine

I thank you both for your kind and caring replies. I do like to have cards on the table, but I can play poker when appropriate. It was not really all about me. And I certainly did not intend to disparage the efforts of the people named. I was looking at the wise people around me on this forum who were inadvertently being delegated to an outer group.

The comments and subsequent discussion had to do with consolidation around certain issues which I think you all recognize. Vagueness or generalities can be interpreted along the line of the reader’s own bias. Sparring can definitely lead to a good learning outcome for participants. When viewed by onlookers it can also be a disruptive force and a confusing influence.

These were the very things I thought were being talked about. And I wasn’t aware I was having a blow out. What I thought I was doing was asking for clarification which you both have given me, and again I thank you for that. I am sorry if it had to cause upset. It was truly not my intention.

Best wishes, Fab
and thanks for the kind words surviving and Christine's hug.

And Fab, I know Fab stands for fabric, but it only means fabulous in my book. - surviving

Hi ladies,
I have actually tried the Kegel Queen program for my rectocele and cystocele that I acquired after giving birth to my second baby at 32. Like some of you said, the program seemed totally bogus to me but I was pretty desperate for non surgical solutions so decided to give it a shot. After 3 months of religiously doing kegels, I see absolutely no improvement in my prolapse. From what I see, most of the clients who sign up for tho kegel queen program are elderly women who need someone to listen to them compassionately and tell them they are not alone, which Alyce is great at doing. Some of them have reported improvement in incontinence symptoms. As for prolapse, it seems to me that prolapse only improved for those women who also were using an estrogen cream or a pessary so essentially it's not kegels that helped them but something else. The forum is only open to members for the first 30 days of the program so no way to find out if anyone benefitted long term. I am also extremely confused as to what to do with my prolapse at such a young age.

Interesting observations, thanks for posting. I wonder if you can tell me something I'm dying to know. I checked out her promo and she seems to be saying that she's the only person in the world who knows how to kegel "correctly". Why does she say this? Does she in fact have a different technique? - Surviving

Kegel queen's kegel technique is not unique at all - it's merely holding the strongest possible contraction for up to 10 seconds and relaxing in between contractions. She advocates quality versus quantity and teaches how to incorporate breathing into the work-out to make it relaxing and enjoyable. Mostly her program is a great motivator for people who can't get started which was never my problem luckily but regardless I still learned quite a lot of information from her even if I conflicting with this website.

OK, sorry to be a broken record, but I'm happy to beat a dead horse as many times as it takes. If anyone is STILL doing Kegels, please read the following blog articles NOW:

http://wholewoman.com/blog/?p=1497
http://wholewoman.com/blog/?p=118

Keep beating that dead horse, surviving! It seems as though people are dabbling from so many different sources, and throwing every wrench into the machine, when all they really need to do is read Christine's work, learn the depth at which she has researched prolapse, and then apply these principles. It is so simple to me, but then I haven't strayed from whole woman since I started reading and applying it to my life. I just wish others could see the importance of this, and how much it can help them.
Sorry, having a moment...

I'm with you!!
I wish others could see it also!!
I am living proof that Christine's approach WORKS...
From prolapse to hips!!
Oh - the paradigm shift!!
BTWay, do you ever sleep S60 !! your support of everyone on this forum is to be very highly commended, many thanks!! Aging Gracefully - I love your forum name & your support also!!

Best wishes,
Aussie Soul Sister